AI Behavior

  • January 30, 2018 at 5:56 PM #144139
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    Post AI bugs and Behavior ideas

    The AI are a huge part of player retention for MAV but they can use some work.

    Bugs present in 7.0:

    I’ve noticed railgun equipped AI will fire a lot of shots toward the enemy team in the beginning of the match before having line of sight on any enemy MAVs. They will fire these shots high into the skybox usually.

    I’m seeing grenades fired WAY above close-range targets. At point blank the AI seems to think the enemy is standing on top of them. May be an issue with their range calculation, or they don’t have a “point blank” limit in their aiming AI. Howitzer equipped AI are also way overshooting enemies.

    **Fixed in 0.7.3.1** On Tegid Valley most AI teammates seem to camp about 100-200m in front of their own base or move in 50m increments and then pause for a while. Not sure if this is an intentional call by the AI commander to make them defend, or if it just takes a long time assessing the huge map. It definitely isn’t right and makes it the worst map for AI.

    AI spend a lot of time staring at their feet, even in the middle of a fight.

    Behavior tweaks:

    **Fixed in 0.7.3.1**Conga Lines – The AI should spread out more to get better map coverage from the beginning of a match. This will resemble (good) player team behavior and add some variety to how matches play out. It would also show off the AI’s ability to communicate and the AI commander’s ability to adjust the team on the fly. Maybe the conga line effect is just a symptom of bases being too high of a priority for the AI to focus on anything else? The AI should treat Siege matches as if they are advancing to contact with the enemy rather than base rushing.

    Bot Orders

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    January 30, 2018 at 8:36 PM #144143
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1777

    Hey, that’s my job! D:<
    lol, I kid, may as well stick in some of my input on this topic.

    -They are wonky with grenades, they reserve the weapon strictly for point blank but overshoot like crazy. It kind of reminds me of how they use mines.

    On Tegid Valley most AI teammates seem to camp about 100-200m in front of their own base or move in 50m increments and then pause for a while. Not sure if this is an intentional call by the AI commander to make them defend, or if it just takes a long time assessing the huge map. It definitely isn’t right and makes it the worst map for AI.

    This seems like a very recent issue, I do remember playing a few matches back in 0.6.17/.18 and they’d usually be all over the map. They had a tendency to fall through the map on occasion back then which makes me wonder if the fix for that is related to their inability to move.

    Howitzer equipped AI are also way overshooting enemies.

    Not anymore. They were fixed this patch.

    -The behavior of close range AI staring off into space a lot is actually pretty easy to explain.
    The movement AI is what determines where to go, spots targets and such, while the turret AI picks will aim at spotted targets that are within weapon range and deals with the shooting.
    So the movement AI may be “fighting” but if you’re not yet in range of any of its weapons the turret module won’t take aim until you are in range, hence staring at the ground. This is why you never see sniper or support AI do this but very frequently see this with attackers/scouts/defenders especially if their weapons are all melee.
    I would like to see an interaction to be implemented where the movement module “wakes up” the turret module and points it in the direction of the movement module’s target even before being in weapon range. It would make them way better with melee weapons in general.

    Conga Lines – The AI should spread out more to get better map coverage from the beginning of a match. This will resemble (good) player team behavior and add some variety to how matches play out. It would also show off the AI’s ability to communicate and the AI commander’s ability to adjust the team on the fly. Maybe the conga line effect is just a symptom of bases being too high of a priority for the AI to focus on anything else?

    The AI should treat Siege matches as if they are advancing to contact with the enemy rather than base rushing.

    Wait, what? In all the games I play the base seemingly doesn’t exist to them (and I’d rather keep it that way, I don’t miss the days when they’d get so fixated on dropping the base that they let you pick them off while the base tanks everything).
    In fact they behave radically differently depending on the map, Outpost Alpha and Grassy Creek are almost exact opposites regarding their behavior.
    In Grassy Creek they take up a position on the hill and play very defensively from there. With the sole exception of the scouts they won’t try to rush you at all.
    While on Outpost Alpha they will aggressively rush you with everything including the hexes and quickly overwhelm you if you let them while at least one, usually a sniper, will sneak around the lesser of the two rockets and open up from behind.
    You’ve probably all seen how they play on Blind Alley but it’s kind of a middle ground between both of the aforementioned maps, the inverse/hex snipers (biped/wheelie snipers always split off) and supports will hang around near the middle of the map as a group while everything else that is a close range build will pursue you wherever you go.

    -If the AI has a direct fire-weapon and an indirect-fire weapon it will almost exclusively use the more powerful of the two and never switch if the power difference is big enough, even if it is out of ammo with that weapon. This is actually demonstrated in the video below; if you pay close attention to the biped with the quad rockets (an indirect-fire weapon) and dual screamer rockets (a direct-fire weapon) you’ll notice that those screamer rockets never fired at all and it was the 2nd last one to die.
    Same goes with range vs melee, if they have a good range option they will never close the distance to use their melee weapon, even if the range weapon is out of ammo. (but I’m pretty sure in either case they switch if the weapon is destroyed rather than just out of ammo)

    Not confirmed if this issue is still present in 7.0.

    -There is a rare bug that if an AI equipped with either piles or flamers (this may include the Saw) takes a heavy amount of impact force via friendly fire, the turret module may fail to ever recover. Again not confirmed if it has persisted into 7.0.

    January 31, 2018 at 8:39 AM #144148
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    This seems like a very recent issue, I do remember playing a few matches back in 0.6.17/.18 and they’d usually be all over the map. They had a tendency to fall through the map on occasion back then which makes me wonder if the fix for that is related to their inability to move.

    It’s been in previous versions of the game. I’m not sure just how far back, but I don’t recall the AI ever working consistently on Tegid Valley for me.

    Not anymore. They were fixed this patch.

    I thought so too according to patch details we received, but I’m still seeing them overshoot and undershoot by a huge distance very often. I thought that this change may have been rolled back in the updater rather than receiving the newest edition, as we have seen happen with things before.

    -The behavior of close range AI staring off into space a lot is actually pretty easy to explain.
    The movement AI is what determines where to go, spots targets and such, while the turret AI picks will aim at spotted targets that are within weapon range and deals with the shooting.
    So the movement AI may be “fighting” but if you’re not yet in range of any of its weapons the turret module won’t take aim until you are in range, hence staring at the ground. This is why you never see sniper or support AI do this but very frequently see this with attackers/scouts/defenders especially if their weapons are all melee.
    I would like to see an interaction to be implemented where the movement module “wakes up” the turret module and points it in the direction of the movement module’s target even before being in weapon range. It would make them way better with melee weapons in general.

    I think it’s more than just that. I keep seeing where the only thing “waking up” the turret AI is the impact of enemy fire from close range, even when their own weapons are well within. Sometimes an AI will just get distracted by the dirt in the middle of a fight until they get hit a couple more times. May have to do with changing target priorities since I can only recall this happening when 2 or more enemies are nearby. For aesthetics I would like to see the default state of the turret AI changed so that it appears more aware. Maybe a left-right “scanning” movement for the cockpit.

    Wait, what? In all the games I play the base seemingly doesn’t exist to them
    In fact they behave radically differently depending on the map, Outpost Alpha and Grassy Creek are almost exact opposites regarding their behavior.

    I think the two of us are looking for AI behavior in totally different situations. I understand that you mostly do 1vsxx AI, while I try to balance out the AI teams and mostly spectate. I want them to behave like humans should against other humans in a siege map. To me an Ideal benchmark of AI behavior would be to have a 1v1 with players that each have 5 AI teammates on Grassy Creek.

    In Grassy Creek they take up a position on the hill and play very defensively from there. With the sole exception of the scouts they won’t try to rush you at all. While on Outpost Alpha they will aggressively rush you with everything including the hexes and quickly overwhelm you if you let them while at least one, usually a sniper, will sneak around the lesser of the two rockets and open up from behind.
    You’ve probably all seen how they play on Blind Alley but it’s kind of a middle ground between both of the aforementioned maps, the inverse/hex snipers (biped/wheelie snipers always split off) and supports will hang around near the middle of the map as a group while everything else that is a close range build will pursue you wherever you go.

    This is OK for playing as a single person or just a few players against a lot of bots, but it’s still very repetitive and predictable. It’s why we always try to avoid playing the same maps too often when playing co-op vs AI on Discord.

    It’s not how teams would play against each other in actual siege matches. When you have two AI teams go against each other, they just dog pile at the middle or pass by each other on the way to the enemy base. They are only making use of a tiny portion of the maps in Siege right now and it’s not interesting enough for most people. Name any map and any regular player could tell you what the AI are going to do on it. If changes were made to the AI Team’s Siege strategy to first spread out and then adapt a plan based on what they find out, it would help improve variety for both 1v11’s and 6v6’s.

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    February 1, 2018 at 7:06 PM #144194
    ~Toast~~Toast~
    Participant
    Sergeant
    Total posts : 87

    Question, have either of you seen the AI place any turrets by any chance?

    February 2, 2018 at 9:40 AM #144214
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    I have seen them place turrets since the 7.0.0 update. I haven’t seen it happen nearly as frequently as it used to, however. I’m not sure if that is purely by chance, or if there was actually a change in engineer behavior.

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    March 25, 2018 at 6:05 AM #145184
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    0.7.1.0:

    Tegid Valley AI are still pretty much stuck in their spawn areas. A couple of AI will trickle out here and there, but it’s not consistent.

    Overall the AI pathfinding seems a lot more clunky. I am seeing a lot of cases of AI standing around and rotating and getting stuck on things they didn’t used to. Perhaps they just need to re-learn the maps for Unity 5.6.

    AI Still suicide by going out of bounds

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    March 30, 2018 at 4:10 PM #145255
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1777

    -Wheelie AI travel in a squiggly line. So far I haven’t seen any other chassis type AI do this, I’d have to que against a hover to determine if they do this as well so I’ll update this if I manage to observe a hover.

    (left, tracks of two AI that were on wheels, right, an AI on treads. )

    *edit* Bipeds and hovers do it as well, but nevermind, I can see this is actually an attempted serpentine pattern to evade weapon fire.
    But it just looks so silly to watch from the other end of the map when they’re doing this well before you’re even in range to shoot them.
    Maybe they should start the evasion after the first time you’ve hit them (like a real player would) so it’s not slowing them down so much and make the serpentine pattern much much wider like that of a real player’s?
    just a suggestion here.

    -The AI places turrets again, but they’re buggy, their upper halves flip upside down and try to shoot you through their lower halves. The AI also still layers two turrets in the same exact spot.

    -The AI on Tegid Valley seems fixed, a group does stay back at the base but I think I can explain why.
    In any 1vX siege match, the AI will split themselves up into two main groups and one much smaller group;
    -The offensive group. This group will pursue you and chase you anywhere on the map, normally you’ll see attackers, defenders, and scouts file themselves into this group.
    -The defensive group. This group will go to a predetermined zone on the map and stay there, normally you’ll see snipers and supports go in this group.
    -The guerilla “group”. This “group” will run along the outskirts of where the battle is taking place to outflank and really annoy you from a distance, biped snipers usually go into this group and seem to be the only type of AI that do besides the occasional hover sniper. I included the quotations because there’s usually just one AI doing this, unless there are multiple biped snipers.

    On Blind Alley, Crater Arena, and Grassy Creek the defensive group’s location is in the smack center of the map (in the latter map the guerilla group never occurs).
    No Man’s Pass’s defensive group for the North team is a broad area that includes their own base and the forked area just outside it, while for the South team it’s on top of the cliff around G6.
    Outpost Alpha is unique in that it doesn’t have a defensive zone, therefore ALL of the AI will go in the offensive group; hence their sheer aggression and even the hex supports will invade your half of the map (though if there is a biped sniper it will go into the guerilla group).

    Tegid Valley’s defensive zone happens to be the exact spot their base is located, ideally it should be moved elsewhere just outside the base. Maybe just expand the zone to cover a super broad area similar to that of the North team’s defense zone on No Man’s Pass, maybe their entire quadrant of the map around it.

    March 30, 2018 at 8:51 PM #145277
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    That’s a pretty solid way of looking at the AI behavior “groups” from an observers standpoint, not bad.

    I’m curious where they learned the serpentine thing from. There are a few funny new behaviors since the update I think they just need to hammer out on their own.

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    March 30, 2018 at 8:52 PM #145278
    Bombdog StudiosBombdog Studios
    Forum Admin
    Chief Warrant Officer
    Total posts : 622

    Just for the record, none of the group behavior or splitting up or even the zones are programmed into the game. It’s all learned.

    I can see about coaxing it a bit more, but it’s not a hard set system at all.

    March 31, 2018 at 7:58 AM #145288
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1777

    Well shit, I thought I had a demonstratably good theory going. :\

    I guess theories are mean’t to be broken afterall.

    March 31, 2018 at 9:31 AM #145295
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    While it’s well known that the AI aren’t actually scripted into categories like that, it’s a good observation of the kind of behaviors that the AI has learned to put itself into. Your observation is still accurate.

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    March 31, 2018 at 11:10 AM #145300
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1777

    Obviously, you can sometimes see attackers or scouts in the defensive group and occasionally you might see a support in the offensive group.

    I’ve also seen individual AI leave the defensive group (or playstyle) into the offensive group. You can see this occur in my attempted 1v17 on youtube if you pay attention to the front shielded AI with the howitzers and 160 machine guns.
    and on some maps like blind alley and giant leap if you’ve killed several members of the defensive group the remaining members will abandon the zone and make a mass migration toward the edge of the map.
    So it’s not scripted, they’re just tasks that the team AI gives them.

    What is surprising for me though is that the zones aren’t actually real.

    March 31, 2018 at 11:38 AM #145301
    Bombdog StudiosBombdog Studios
    Forum Admin
    Chief Warrant Officer
    Total posts : 622

    Yeah, the only ‘helper’ objects on the maps are spawn points.

    April 26, 2018 at 10:03 PM #145562
    Rusty ShacklefordRusty Shackleford
    Participant
    Master Sergeant
    Total posts : 243

    One that wasn’t stated specifically before, but at the beginning of every match the AI will move for about 5-10 seconds and then freeze up for a while before finally continuing on.

    M.A.V. HD on Youtube and @RustEShacky on Twitter

    April 27, 2018 at 5:13 PM #145568
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1777

    Sounds like the AI are figuring out what to do with the orders that the team AI just gave them.

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