Garage complete rework is a must have

  • February 1, 2015 at 4:06 PM #103580
    Tchey
    Participant
    Private First Class
    Total posts : 27

    Hello,

    I’m a new player of MAV, and i enjoy it quite a lot so far. I believe the worst part of the game, by far, is the garage.

    I already know several players who won’t buy the game because what they’ve read about the garage. About my own experience, i feel it’s all broken.

    1 – The garage should be empty. Now, too many smoke, light and that stupid box up my head hidding the camera too often… Why ?

    2 – Have a look at Kerbal Space Program, or Besiege. They have a very well done “move a part in 3D”. Simply add a tool to move the part on one dimension at a time.

    http://www.besiege.spiderlinggames.co.uk/
    https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/

    3 – The menus have to be rethink. Here again, look at KSP. The menu should not pop in my face, and mostly, the part i select should not pop in the middle of my MAV.

    4 – Several placement bugs. If i select a part, it can pop out my cockpit or other parts, and place itself in the middle of nowhere.

    If you don’t have a good garage, lots of players will simply don’t try to play MAV.

    February 2, 2015 at 7:18 PM #112968
    Shogun of Saido
    Participant
    Staff Sergeant
    Total posts : 112

    If you practice coordinating a bit with turning the camera while click/holding a part selected you can always find the correct angle you want. Check out some of my builds or many of the others out there and you can see that you cn build anything your mind sets itself to.

    Of course it will be upgraded in later updates, but if you build a few MAVs you will be used to the system and also see its uses of the current garage state.

    With “Q” and “E” you can flip the parts. Very useful that will solve 75% of the camera angle issues.

    February 2, 2015 at 9:53 PM #112917
    Anvildude
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1884

    Nah. Don’t go sweeping this under the rug.

    The garage’s interface is pants. Pure, polyester pants.

    The ‘snap’ system (rainbow connector, I think someone called it?) just doesn’t work in a 3d environment without occlusion of connection points, and that makes a ‘second stage’ of positioning the camera even above and beyond placing the part. It would work well in a 2D game, or even one based more off Armoured Core or MechWarrior, where each mech has a specific number of specific parts- you could just drag and drop a part into the ‘shoulder slot’ or the ‘mobility slot’, but for something so much more a-la-carte, a click based placement system (like Minecraft or Besiege or Robocraft) with face detection, or else a menu-based system like Chromehounds had, would work much better.

    February 3, 2015 at 11:15 AM #112913
    Shogun of Saido
    Participant
    Staff Sergeant
    Total posts : 112

    My point was not that the garage has such great system as its obvious it sucks monkeyballs at the moment.

    Im just saying that if you want, and stay patient, you can even at this stage build anything you want. The whole page of Builds posted online is a clear example of this fact.

    I didnt even know you could turn parts using the “Q” and “E” keys untill I build my improved SHOGUN ROYAL build…. Before that I was screwing around with camera angles, flipping mounted parts to get weapons into a certain orientation.

    So in short, its just useability the garage lacks and not functionality.

    February 3, 2015 at 12:54 PM #112916
    Tchey
    Participant
    Private First Class
    Total posts : 27

    So in short, it’s just useability the garage lacks and not functionality.

    I agree, even as a new player after maybe one hour i could build some nice stuff. And at same time, it’s also the most important part maybe, that is lacking : interface between users and functions.

    After playing Robocraft, Besiege, Space Engineer… it’s an absolute struggle to use the MAV’s garage !

    But still i’m addicted already, and i want to play more everytime i quit the game…

    February 3, 2015 at 5:38 PM #113267
    Tchey
    Participant
    Private First Class
    Total posts : 27

    I was watching some video about Homebrew, and once again, the “garage” is much easier to use than MAV’s one.

    http://www.homebrewgame.com/

    All these games (Homebrew, KSP, Robocraft, Besiege…) have also one thing in common that Mav doesn’t : the camera is not set to be always looking at the center of mass, so you can move around more freely.

    February 3, 2015 at 5:52 PM #113269
    SergeDavidSergeDavid
    Moderator
    Colonel
    Total posts : 3065

    Well I know what should be updated after the current snapshot cycle is over. Garage mini update between the social update 1 and 2.

    February 5, 2015 at 4:57 AM #113266
    SergeDavidSergeDavid
    Moderator
    Colonel
    Total posts : 3065

    As this is the official garage conversation thread I’ll throw my cents here.

    I’ll start out by focusing on controller support as that is the most limited control scheme we’re currently planning on supporting (not sure how mav would work on a purely touchscreen schema and if it would be worth it, could be cool though. I’ll be using an xbox 360 controller for my examples but since keys are remappable most alternative controllers like a playstation controller can work as well.

    1.0 Camera Controls
    We first need to move the camera around our building environment. The two methods I can see is an orbital approach where you only control the viewing angle / depth or a free camera where you control the rotation and position of the camera.

    1.1 The orbital approach currently requires one joystick. (5 mappable buttons)

    • Joystick Left / Right rotates the camera left or right around the object.
    • Joystick Up / Down raises / lowers the camera around it’s orbit.
    • Depressing the Joystick button causes the Up / Down to zoom in / out.

    In this scheme all of the camera functionality rests in the one joystick. This makes the most sense to me, you could remap the Joystick Depressed button to LB for zoom-out and LT for zoom-in but that doesn’t grant the freedom of variable zoom speeds the Joystick gives though it does make this feature easier to find for someone just pressing buttons.

    Other things that could be done is pressing a button to have it move to a pre-set zoom level and just cycle through those but that again loses finesse.

    Finally we could theoretically have the orbit point change to say the part you’re currently viewing if you press a button or maybe holding down the joystick and shift it far left / right to cycle between the main rotation point and other parts. The down side for this is clipping issues with the garage. You can theoretically move the camera outside of the world with specific builds. The camera could have collision and not leave the confines of the garage and since it should theoretically always be pointing towards the inside (after the build bubble is introduced) cases of rotating around a part that exists outside of the garage should be less than likely and zooming out until you’re outside could be removed due to collision with the ceiling / floor / wall.

    For Mouse and Keyboard this is all on the left click + mouse movement / scroll or WASD and R/F or Page Up / Page Down / Whatever. The shift between parts could be Tab or both mouse buttons at once.

    1.2 The next camera option is a free camera.This one is a little bit more tricky. We require a way of moving the camera and rotating it at the same time. This would require both sticks (8 key bindings) to pull off. One to move your position in the relative X and Y planes (forward / backwards / left / right) while the other changes your rotation along two angles (up / down / left / right).

    Go fly up you simply look up and move forward. There is a ton of freedom with this and you could explore all sorts of parts of your limited section of the garage (I say an invisible wall stopping you from going to the other hangers).

    This can again be handled by the Mouse and Keyboard with the easiest scheme being WASD for movement and the mouse movement for look direction.

    1.3 In conclusion I believe both options are viable and can be supported by both control schemes. Touch would favor rotating with pinching for zooming (2 finger swipes for view rotation). The big deciding factor for these is adding parts and positioning them.

    2.0 Part Manipulation
    This is going to be a big section so bare with me. I’m not going to talk at all about the Add Parts menu in this as that is a post for another day. Instead I’ll divide this up into sections from adding parts to moving them around to rotating, placing, and finally to deleting or switching parts.

    2.1 Part Creation
    After we’ve selected the part we want to add it to the environment and there is two ways of doing this. The first is that it is created in front of us or it is added to the build automatically. I personally favor the automatically added method as it removes the need to grab the part from floating nearby and attaching it.

    2.1a The logic behind floating part additions (what we have now) isn’t much, it just needs to be created in a reachable empty area away from the current build. Before the camera shift was added we’ve had times where parts where added under the ground, in the chassis (thread builds ate new parts a lot), and the part does not spawn behind the build causing you to grab the M.A.V. and decapitating it (glitch).

    For this I’d say the camera shift is a good stopgap but it isn’t beta material, at least with the position shift, maybe with a look direction shift at a floating menu that slides into view (rotate 45 degree’s left and the menu slides into view from the left). The biggest problem is making sure the part is not covers in the M.A.V.

    2.1b For the automatically attached route though there can be some easy logic to it. The part gets added to the most recently attached part that has a valid connector so if there is no connection points on the part like an armor plate then it goes to the spacer the armor plate is connected too or the weapon hanging off the side of it. Since the parts turn a nice red and translucent when it is colliding even if the part is added in a bad location we just have to move it or rotate it. We’d have to move it anyway if it wasn’t automatically attached so no big deal on this end.

    2.1c In conclusion I prefer automatic connections. It could get confusing with lots of parts compact together but adding some logic to part additions so it makes a bit of sense like attempting to use a connection that isn’t invalid / already used would be nice.

    2.2The next thing is moving and rotating parts. With a controller it could be a bit odd to grab parts and move them on the screen as you don’t have as much finesse as a mouse.

    The main two methods I can see for this is either having the part locked to the M.A.V. unless you pull it off with a mouse to sit floating in the air, or find a way to select a part and grab it by holding or pressing a controller button like A.

    The thing about having it locked to the M.A.V. is that all you need is a simple schema for buttons.

    • Right Trigger – Rotate Part Right
    • Left Trigger – Rotate Part Left
    • Right Bumper – Next connection Point
    • Left Bumper – Last connection Point
    • Joystick Up / Down – Next Part / Previous Part to connect too
    • Joystick Left / Right – Previous / Next connection point on the part you’re connected too to connect too, if last available connection then go to the next / prev part.
    • A – Finalize
    • B – Cancel
    • X – Change Part
    • Y – Delete
    • D-Pad – Something about chat and other social stuff
    • Right Joystick Button – Free
    • Select – Leave Garage
    • Start – Something about menues

    Want a gun pointing sideways? LT or RT
    Want to rotate a gun so it won’t collide with the corner of that shield? LB or RB

    At any time you can switch to the mouse and keyboard way of grabbing it and dropping it, though that needs a bit of work in itself on how to cycle through available connection points.

    2.3 On an unlocked part though trying to select a part using an ingame “mouse cursor” with the controller seems dated and ugly. Cycling through parts sounds better for a controller if the camera is orbital. However for a free camera you could have the part directly in front of your camera (highlighted) be grab-able.

    Grab it, rotate it with the bumpers / triggers, and then ease it into place. Since you can move the part closer / too the part your trying to add it too we’d hopefully loose the ambiguity on what part it is trying to attach too. Maybe change that part’s color to a glowing pink or something and have the part your holding go a bit translucent so you can see through it.

    The biggest problem with the current drag and drop setup is that you can’t move the part closer / further away from you and the “where it is connecting” line does not help in most cases as it is lost through the sea of connection points / parts.

    2.3 In Conclusion I personally like the 1st method where stuff is handled as it is always connected and anything unconnected is ignored. That way it always works with orbital and free cam. The only thing left to do is to fix the Mouse and Keyboard version.

    3.0 Mouse and Keyboard
    So since free cam can work for us with a controller with a drag and drop system lets see what we can do with an orbital camera layout for the mouse and keyboard.

    The two options I can see is to select what part your connecting too and then drag / rotate / drop onto that part, the always attached method talked about above, or something along the lines of drag / drop but with a ghost image of it latch onto where it’s trying to attach too so you can visually see how it will attach.

    3.1 Selecting the part it will be connected too should probably happen before you grab the part you want to select. Maybe when you click a connected part instead of holding it and dragging it, it will highlight. This way the Left mouse button can be used for both moving / dragging and selecting.

    After you’ve highlighted the part your connecting too you just have to grab the part your going to connect to it and drag it into place and rotate it (QE or Shift+QWEASD). Since only one part is being researched since it is highlighted the “Connection” line can be long and strong. The part you’re dragging would only have to be near the part to connect instead of very close to it.

    3.2 The second method I talked about is in 2.2

    • Q / E = Rotate Left / Right
    • A / D = Next connection point on connector (if last go to another part)
    • W / S = Prev / Next part
    • R / F = Change the connection point on the selected item to use

    3.3 Finally the drag and ghost drop is the closest to what we have now, we just have to add a phantom image of the part we’re moving or have it already “attach” while we’re dragging it, sort of like a “snap too” thing. This could work and has been mentioned before, but I think we have nicer alternatives.

    4.0 In Closing
    After about two hours of typing away I’m going to save this sucker and then submit it. The Mouse and Keyboard system along with the Controller system should work in harmony and can be interchangeable.

    I’d personally like to keep the orbital approach as it helps reinforce the build bubble. I’m sorry it’s so long but hey I want to get everything out there in a nicely worded wall of text. Anyway time to go eat dinner and go to sleep, cya all.

    February 5, 2015 at 6:32 AM #112961
    LegacyElite84LegacyElite84
    Moderator
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Total posts : 2516

    Might as well add to the pennies in the pile. To keep all of this compiled, I’m going to be breaking this down into Garage Concepts (mainly focused on mouse and keyboard) and the Pre-Game Lobby. For the Pre-Game Lobby, I will only be focused on the loading and altering of the build loaded.

    Garage Concepts

    With this being the only current method and probably going to be one of the most used, getting everything down is key.

    Movement

    Currently, I have zero complaints about the movement system. Zoom with the mouse wheel and full rotational movement with the right mouse button. Dirt simple and easy to understand. Personally, considering there is not the ultimate building freedom of games such as Robocraft, as well as the bubble limiter which is coming soon, a free camera would be more of a hassle and simply not needed. With a controller, you could have one stick grant full movement, and either the other stick or two buttons giving zoom ability.

    Menus

    Top Menus

    Garage Tab

    I’m digging the general layout of the button configuration, so no arguments.

    Weapons

    This needs a bit of a rework. Starting off on selecting weapons, having all weapons not selected in any group is a good feature. The group layout is also nice as well.

    For the individual groups, have it where only one weapon group can be worked on at a time to make this next part easier. When working in the selected weapon group, all weapons is the group are highlighted in some way, as they currently are, but with the addition of if you click on said weapon on the list, that weapon will highlight differently to indicate which weapon in the group you have just selected. This would make it easier for altering weapon groups, especially on builds with large weapon groups and/or using of many of the same weapon. As much as I like removing the weapons one by one on the list to find out what order they are in, it’s annoying after a while.

    Paint

    Functionality first. Overall, it’s a simple and efficient setup. Having the ability to save and load paint jobs would be nice.

    As for what we have now, my only problems exist with the inaccuracy between the display image and the colors that actually get thrown onto your M.A.V. when you paint it on.

    Another is that the slider accuracy is off. A good example of this is when I go to make black by turning the sliders all the way left, it comes out as a very dark version of the last slider I touched.

    My lesser one is that having a stock paint job for each of the camos would be pretty cool, where you could just grab the stock orange and black tiger stripes, instead of having some random color scheme used for all of them. More or less, when you’re selecting patterns, have the sliders and color options immediately revert to a stock paint job when it is selected for application/modifying.

    Main Menu

    Self Explanatory. Figure it out.

    Shop

    Time for the concepts.

    I would say use the current menu system we have now for parts addition, but with a buy/sell option. Upon selecting a part to buy/sell, you have the option of selecting how many, as well as seeing how much of the part you already own.

    Profile

    Standard, run of the line profile view, allowing you to view your profile and others.

    Social

    This function opens some windows. Chat and trading mostly. The main one I would like to focus on here is the trading of parts, builds, money, camos, etc. Self explanatory for the most part.

    Something that could be done is have a list made of people in the Garage currently all across the game, as well as those hosting a trade lobby with a brief description of what they want. In the trade lobby, a chat box at least has to be present.

    Sidebar

    Load/Save Builds

    My biggest problem with this system is that half of the time, the builds are cut off in the image. Other than that, I love it.

    Auto Generate

    Self Explanatory. No problems here, beside not having set weapons.

    Undo Button

    So. Needed.

    Add Parts

    Menu wise, it’s functional, but not streamline.

    One of my biggest issues in that the parts pictures for half of them are all different sizes and not constant, with some being cut off.

    For the filter, it needs a rework. Perhaps having it search with the option of Part Type> Overall Variant> Search Variants. For example, something like Search: Weapons> Snipers> Damage: Over 150, Weight: Under 1000.

    For the actual parts selection, my gripes are few. My only real additions would be an additional subcategory for LGT variants, or, have each part have a subcategory for all of its variants. For example, there are six variants of the Z-Con. Having all of those variants categorized would allow for a more smooth flow, especially as we get more parts added in.

    Final issue is that these parts need names! As much as I like SNP-.Y6-HD and SNP-.Y6-160, I thing Sabre Cannon Mk. I and Sabre Cannon Mk. II sounds a lot better.

    For the actuality of spawning a part in, I’m still aboard of having a designated spawn area. What we have now is better, but I absolutely loathe that camera jerk, and it really disorients me.

    Building

    So many methods, but I only have one in mind that I can really get aboard with for mouse and keyboard. Simply, click on a part that you want to attach somewhere, click on the attach joint that you want to use, then click on the part that you want to attach it to, and finally select the joint on that part. From there, rotation of the new part can be done through the rotation option that’s already in. I’d still say keep Shift WASDQE in for helping with orientation purposes.

    Controller wise, when you spawn a part, it’s automatically selected. From there, you pick a joint on that part, pick a part you want to attach it to, and then its respectable joint. Part rotation is done at this point.

    Pre-Game Lobby

    If you made it this far, I love you. Almost done.

    Paint

    One of the biggest things I would like to see here is the ability to paint your build in the Pre-Game lobby, especially to paint your blazing pink war stripes onto your build because your team was deciding to feel a little more pink today.

    Another good option is having the players of each team have the ability to set a team camo, where players on that team could have the option to use it and will become the default color patter for the AI.

    Loading

    No real gripes here. One ability that I would like to see is the ability to have a trade lobby here. This would be especially crucial for Campaign battles where your team is scrounging up parts between everyone to get one of you with that sniper build. It would also promote build sharing early on.

    End of my Garage Needs. Praise the Ladybug. Praise the Glacier. I’m going to bed.

    February 5, 2015 at 3:30 PM #112962
    Tchey
    Participant
    Private First Class
    Total posts : 27

    You are talking about controlers (xbox, playstation…), touchscreen… OK, why not, but i bought a PC game, i will mainly play with Keyboard and Mouse control. I didn’t buy Chromehounds remake on xbox, i bought MAV, a game inspired by Chromehounds and others, on my computer.

    About the garage i feel you are missing the part where you can copy what the others are doing, when they are doing it greatly.

    I’m talking about Kerbal Space Program (KSP) mainly, because building a rocket feels quite similar to building a robot. Again, Robocraft, Besiege or Homebrew, to pick the ones i know the most, are all doing great in this domain.

    http://i.imgur.com/RbRRj.png

    About MAV, we need to know what part is the most efficient, if i what armor, mobility, damage, range, etc, so we need a list with several information, right.

    What about a KSP style, with a checkbox “list/item” ? The tabs from KSP are to be replaced with the tabs from MAV of course (Mobility, Armor, Weapon…). But the main part can be very similar.

    When the checkbox is List, we have a list like we have now.
    When the checbox is Item, we have picture like in the screenshot above.

    Then, drag and place it. As a list or as an item, the part would appear next to the mouse cursor and move with it until placed.

    Maybe, when you select a part, you can deposit it where you want, to select a specific point, and then click on the MAV, to select another point, and voila, parts are loving each others, and you only have to rotate them if needed.

    About the camera, i feel i only need a middleclick to move the camera around, so i can turn and see and move everywhere i need to be to build my MAV.

    Maybe i’m missing something, but it seems so simple ! Mostly all the games i know about constructing vehicle, robots, stuff, are done in a similar way. They do that because so far it’s the most efficient way to do it, and to move a 3D object in a 3D environment, on a 2D screen.

    Only MAV tries to be “something else, something worst”.

    February 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM #112963
    LegacyElite84LegacyElite84
    Moderator
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Total posts : 2516

    Tchey, with all the talk about controller, there already is a controller integration into the game for actual combat. And the general rule of thumb is that if you have controller support for one aspect of a game, the whole game will need controller support, including the Garage.

    While some may stay with the mouse and keyboard setup here, a good amount prefer controllers (or even full mech rig setups) for these style of games, whether it be for just building, combat, or both, and having that option there opens up the game to a lot more players.

    February 5, 2015 at 6:09 PM #112964
    SergeDavidSergeDavid
    Moderator
    Colonel
    Total posts : 3065

    Middle mouse by default is a bad idea. Many people don’t have a mouse wheel and it caused me a ton of grief years ago when I only had a left and right.

    people with physical disabilities / preference to controllers should also be considered. We want to open options and not constrict it to just mouse and keyboard.

    Now onto how other games handle stuff. robocraft uses a block system and that works for them. Each part translates to a 1x1x1 cube and it makes sense for them but MAV has variable sized parts that don’t fit on a grid.

    For kerbal I remember that you can place parts anywhere on the build and not just limited to hardpoints. I can’t see the ease of part addition and movement translate well.

    February 5, 2015 at 11:27 PM #112943
    Anvildude
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1884

    You make a lot of good points, Serge. I think you’re forgetting one option for Camera control- the ChromeHOunds/MWO method.

    To me, this isn’t necessarily purely about functionality, but also about feel. Currently, we have a free-moving camera, and that’s fine- necessary, even, with the drag-n-drop system for building that’s in now. But it smacks of, well, hobby, or cutesy. For games like Robocraft, that works, because that’s part of the overall feel they’re going for. But if MAV’s gonna be a grittier war ‘simulation’ game, I think it needs a more regimented, disciplined camera scheme. Now, going with your Orbital idea, that could work well for part-by-part shifting around, where you have the orbit around the part currently selected. I think, however, that a stationary, single perspective on a part would lend a little more weight to the system.

    Similarly, and this ties in with where I think FROM got it right (since they use something similar in AC), it allows you a lot more focus on the orientation and placement of individual parts. Granted, it works best when you’re manipulating a part in a single space (such as when using a click-click placement scheme) but I think it lends more weight to the process. You’re not levitating a part into perfect position right away- you’re instead putting it about where you want it, then focusing on it and how it fits in.

    February 6, 2015 at 3:08 AM #112945
    Cyberdogs7
    Participant
    Colonel
    Total posts : 3214

    @Tchey wrote:

    Only MAV tries to be “something else, something worst”.

    I just wanted to comment on this. MAV actually had a UI system similar to what you talked about in your post. The issue we quickly ran into is, MAV parts have way more stats that need to be considered than any of the parts in KSP. Also, MAV already has well over 100 more parts than KSP. So when you are talking about more stats and 50% more parts, there is a LOT more information that needs to be presented to the player. More UI revisions tried to address this.

    Just wanted to catch you up on the history of the game.

    February 6, 2015 at 4:38 AM #112946
    LegacyElite84LegacyElite84
    Moderator
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Total posts : 2516

    I just thought of one stat I would like to see. Muzzle velocity for weapons.

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