Just a big pile of balance ideas.

  • June 14, 2018 at 9:59 PM #145908
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1779

    So I’ve been having a lot of ideas in mind. But rather than to do unsung parts threads one at a time and go off listening to people complain about commonly complained about parts; I decided to sit down and point out every part that sticks out as a problem whether it’s oppressively strong or it’s dead and completely irrelevant, and suggest ideas of what to do with them.
    Keep in mind that when I talk about fire rate, i’m almost always referring to rounds per minute or RPM, not the in-game garage’s reload time stat.
    The RPMs of weapons can be found here. http://www.raksal.com/content/compare

    HD Machine guns.
    -Thoughts on the current version: This weapon has impressive survivability stats and is the only zero-recoil splash-resilient direct-damage weapon in the game. Which makes one immediately think “this is a defender weapon”, albeit it’s an underpowered (it has the lowest DPM) and fairly ammo starved one.
    There’s two issues with this however; the only defender cockpits that are suited for the weapon are the Armored Rhino and Regular Rhino, all other defender pits have up to 4 slots per group which is not optimal for machine guns. The other issue is that Treads have since had their stability buffed, so the niche they filled is no longer relevant, they have the stability to run other options more reliably than they did before.
    In short they weren’t very good before despite their niche, there’s no reason to run them now unless you want a highly durable spacer of sorts.

    -What I would change: It is a serviceable weapon but there are some serious issues holding it back. Poor DPM and runs out of ammo surprisingly quickly.
    While I do like the idea of a slow firing machine gun that fires powerful rounds, it just doesn’t feel like there’s any more oomph behind the individual rounds than with other machine guns, feeling is important.
    1, Reduce their fire rate (rounds per minute) to 85% of what it is now and increase the damage per round to 11 (up from 8) for LGT variants and 14 (up from 11) for standard size variants. This should result in a minor increase to their DPM and help with their ammo issues. This is still a bit weaker than the 160 (excluding heat damage) and the newly buffed Z but it is close.
    As for ammo the fastest firing variant now lasts a little over two minutes of firing time and gains 1600 total damage.
    2, Increase their range by a flat 25m for all variants and their projectile velocity by a flat 150 for all variants, and reduce their spread by 0.1. This should help it feel a little more powerful and to better compete with the 160 assault rifle that it is sometimes compared to.

    160 Machine guns.
    -Thoughts on the current version: I honestly believe this weapon was over-tuned and still is despite the slight rework it had in a somewhat recent patch.
    What it did was introduce an overheating mechanic which in theory forces you to fire in bursts and hold it back on hotter maps where they’re most effective, and gives it a potential weakness to other heat weapons.
    In theory it worked at first but it was found that to overcome all of these effects all you need to do is to add cooling to your build, and/or switch to slower firing variants like the .Y6.
    Whether that’s to attach other LGT weapons to the cluster for their cooling, hinge them off a radiator, even a FSS does the job well thanks to having passive cooling similar to multiple light radiators and the option to immediately reset your own heat whether it’s from your own overheating or the opponent setting you on fire. In other words the burst can easily outlast the life of your target and naturally makes your build more resistant to other heat builds.
    They also outclass non-megaflame flamers putting in very similar amounts (slightly higher in-fact) of heat at a longer range and lasting much longer in ammo, even without the heat damage they actually tie with the buffed Z MINI for highest direct damage (which flamers don’t do any).
    By the way one LGT 160.Y6 mini currently has a firing rate of 445.3 RPM, that is also the amount of heat that it induces into a target PER SECOND, it outperforms every heat weapon excluding the mega flames and the vanilla LGT 160 MINI puts in a little more than twice as much heat (I did the math) than the LGT 160 shotgun.
    (Divide its RPM by 60 and you get the amount of rounds fired per second, each round does 60 heat impact, it goes back to 445.3. This also applies to all other mini 160 variants.
    Mind blowing isn’t it?)

    -What I would change: Heat weapons in general have been a subject of complaints and attempting to balance a powerful heat weapon by giving it a weakness to other heat weapons is not healthy to the metagame. Toning them down is the better solution.
    1, Revert their heat generation back to 0 and reduce their heat damage threshold to 100 (down from 235). It was a creative solution but it just didn’t work, new players complain about the weapon all. the. time. and even you yourself implied that they’re a braindead weapon.
    2, Reduce their heat impact to do 25 heat per shot (down from 60).
    This toning down of their secondary effect should force the user to have to commit into focusing down their target in order to make value out of their heat damage.
    Emphasis should rest more on their direct-damage (which by the way ties with the recently buffed Z mini for the highest DPM) in short engagements rather than their overwhelming heat damage. It shouldn’t be possible to fire a fairly short burst and leave the guy alone to die of heat damage several seconds later.
    Taking the same lgt 160.Y6 mini that was mentioned earlier, it will do 185.5 heat per second.
    This is still a lot but it should be more manageable.

    X Machine guns
    -Thoughts on the current version: Much like the HD, this is a serviceable weapon due to having better range and accuracy to make its damage output more consistent (if weaker) but it suffers a similar problem running out of ammo surprisingly quickly. In fact they have similar total damages.

    -What I would change: I would increase its ammo capacity to 900 (up from 700). It’s enough for the fastest firing variant to last a little more than two minutes.

    HADES
    -Thoughts on the current version: Honestly it is a rediculous weapon to play against.
    Its projectile speed is actually on par with the lighter howitzers (significantly higher than the other heavy howies), it has by far the largest splash radius in the game, and it is near immune to splash damage for an obsolete reason.
    While by itself it is unlikely to do a lot to a build that is ready for it, it may outright kill a build that isn’t heavily committed into into negating heat damage and with follow-up from other heat weapons it can be devastating. The splash radius also makes it nigh impossible to avoid if it’s fired in your general direction especially if it’s fired at medium to close range.

    -What I would change: Toning it down so it’s less frustrating to play against is honestly the only thing to do here.
    1, Reduce their splash radius to 25 (down from 45), with the faster projectile speed it really shouldn’t need the oversized splash radius and should be more feasible for the target to play around it. This sets it between the XXL and Centurion.
    2, Reduce their armour to 40 (down from 85), why is it nearly immune to splash damage?
    It was once justification for how offensively underpowered it was when the weapon first came out but now it just seems so out of place especially given that it’s usually found on builds that have very little armour.
    If it were reworked or another variant existed that went the other way with its buffs to have significantly reduced recoil it would’ve been a decent choice for the defender role.

    JOFST 25
    -Thoughts on the current version: Its relatively light weight together with its massive size make it much too easy to slap one (or in some cases two) on the front of your build which single-handedly turned full shielded builds such as the riot tank from a meme build at best to a serious threat and spawned the highly aggressive riot car.
    For what this armour plate does, it’s just too light and readily usable.

    -What I would change:
    1. Increase both its weight and durability to approximately 1900 (up from 1125 and 1445 respectively) which would increase the resources required to commit into using one and reduce its weight to durability ratio down almost 1 to 1. This would make it is less efficient compared to the other underutilized options that have less consistent coverage.
    But it is still more capable of taking punishment individually.
    2. Introduce a variant in the heavy category that appears identical sharing the 1900 durability/weight but lacks the front attach point and has an additional 120 durability.

    160 pile:
    -Thoughts on the current version: This weapon has never had a role, in theory it would be perfect for a brawler biped that can use the reload rate to repeatedly stab someone while dancing around them but there are better weapons for this.
    It’s even entirely outclassed by the HD Shotgun in this role doing much more damage, shares an immunity to splash damage with more reach, significantly less recoil and weight, even a slightly faster reload time and higher total damage.

    -What I would change:
    1, Reduce its recoil to 60 (down from 275). With the stability nerfs to bipeds it makes even less sense for a pile to have more recoil than most sniper rifles and regular howitzers (only the HD howies and HD.x2 snipers have more recoil) especially for one built for brawling which wants durability which is often reduced in parts that boast good stability.
    2, Increase their damage to 205 (up from 115). Being the only pile that’s designed for brawling rather than drive bys, it doesn’t make sense that its DPM is actually much lower than even the lighter regular VLAD which makes it ironically less suited for the role.
    It’s now significantly higher and should make it a good contender for brawling.

    Z Cannons:
    -Thoughts on the current version: Granted the basic model is a starter part and shouldn’t be anything special, but new players shouldn’t have to struggle so much to beat an AI.
    They need a weapon to get the job done and the cannon is probably the worst starter part next to the sniper rifle (albeit for completely different reasons).
    Besides the occasional chance that you might fill that last slot in a group of HDs with a Z thanks to their identical range, projectile speed, and firing rates; there’s no reason to ever use these once you’ve unlocked better weapons. Going for quantity doesn’t work well either especially now that recoil is not as easily managed as it once was.

    -What I would change: “Lightweight basic weaksauce gun” shouldn’t be this weapon’s role.
    To start, I would increase the weight of all variants to be identical to their X counterparts, and with it increase the damage of LGT variants to 125 per shot (up from 99) and 169 (up from 132) for standard variants.
    When comparing these new Zs to Xs it’s a choice between projectile speed vs ammo capacity and range.
    They are a bit weaker in raw damage output than Xs since Zs are easier to hit with and I don’t want to kill the Bullot cannon. Hopefully they should have some end game presence with this change.

    160 Cannons:
    -Thoughts on the current version: Remember when I advocated to bring its survivability stats to be on par with the Bullot and its HD cousins to survive in the defender role? And instead we got this heat impact buff that did literally nothing because of how small it was?
    Yeah, I bring that up a lot…
    It’s the 2nd heaviest cannon and has nothing to show for it, besides a faster projectile speed, reduced recoil, and cool looking red shells.
    It doesn’t have the stats to survive at the closer ranges and the heat damage itself is not enough to contribute anything even if you use the cannons en masse or as follow-up to the HADES. You’re universally better off with either the HD or the X. The former has much more durability and the latter out-ranges it; both have better DPM.

    -What I would change: Personally I would fix both of these issues but not to the extent that I once advocated for.
    1, Increase the armour of the standard size to 100 (up from 65) and the LGT size to 64 (up from 26), leave its durability untouched. Currently there is only one splash-proof weapon in the game that is not a mellee weapon; the HD shotgun which doesn’t have much reach either. Their options are incredibly limited and this seems like a good candidate for the role of a ranged splash proof weapon and the reduced recoil could be useable to the heavy low stability splash-proof cockpits.
    2, Increase their heat impact to 200 (up from 75).
    If 100 from the 160 sniper rifle isn’t enough to do anything significant, then the the 75 from this doesn’t stand a chance.
    It just bleeds off to other parts to immediately bring the part below the threshold and together disipate the heat entirely before the reload is done, even without radiators.
    Watch it with thermals if you’d like to, they cool down almost instantly if you don’t keep piling on heat which is impossible with this weapon.
    A group of these should be able to cause a bit of guaranteed heat damage to a part before it bleeds off and resets.

    160 Sniper rifle
    -Thoughts on the current version: This weapon was recently buffed to bring its range out of assault rifle territory and have the 2nd highest projectile velocity just behind the X snipers.
    Which are both significant but it hasn’t seen much play still.
    Its range being in BTR territory has caused it to be entirely outclassed by the X BTR (similar weight, similar range, higher projectile velocity, higher DPM, far less recoil, better ammo cap, significantly better survivability, even better accuracy!), and the heat damage it does is not significant enough to be relevant.
    There were some ideas I had before they got buffed but they’ve changed since the BTRs came out.

    -What I would change: Honestly I think the X BTR is overtuned so I’d rather reduce its range instead of messing around with this weapon’s range. So that should remain the same.
    1, Reduce the recoil of .x2 variants to 136 (down from 176) and of .Y6 variants to 101.
    With less range you’d be tempted to place this on a less stable chassis or cockpit for speed or survivability but the recoil being identical to Xs usually makes the transition to Xs a no brainer if your build can handle either rifle. This could make it more readily useable on builds that are not able to handle Xs well.
    2, Increase their heat damage to 225 (up from 100). See the previous weapon, all the things I said there applies here.

    X BTR
    -Thoughts on the current version: As I mentioned before, this variant is overtuned.
    The first time I saw the stats of rifles on rak sal on my phone, I immediately thought that it stood well above the other variants with only the Z offering some rivalry having more ammo and slightly more damage per shot with an identically low weight.
    It even has the range and projectile speed to outclass the 160 sniper rifle.
    While I might’ve overhyped it and believed that it would singlehandedly push cannons into extinction. They didn’t exactly do that but it’s a strong weapon regardless, and so safe that it’s a snore to use.

    -What I would change: It’s durability should be reduced to 658 (down from 758) and range reduced to 875 (down from 980). Projectile velocity reduced to 650. It just feels wrong having 2nd the highest velocity in the game behind the rail gun.

    Stub BTR
    -Thoughts on the current version: I like the idea of it, and its stats are very similar to that of the Xs save for reduced ammo capacity and weight. Unfortunately due to differences in projectile speed and reload rate the two weapons don’t mix well in the same group.
    So they can’t fill the role of fire group filler for the X BTR (like the Z cannon does with the HD cannon), and they’re strictly designed to be a secondary weapon which is not something i’ve ever seen happen.

    -What I would change: Range reduced to 875, firing rate increased to 34.3 RPM (up from 30 RPM) to allow them to be mixed with X BTRs as fire group filler.

    Z BTR
    -Thoughts on the current version: The fact this weapon is highly interchangeable with the X (due to identical weights) is actually pretty awesome. It reminds me of how the Faus and Ghayma howitzers were interchangeable in Chromehounds and I thought it was the best thing ever being able to swap between them whether you preferred the Faus’s alpha, velocity, and range or the Ghayma’s higher DPM.
    The relation with Zs and Xs here is more about whether you want longevity and damage per shot (Z) or durability, DPM and range (X).

    -What I would change: Reduce projectile velocity to 650. It otherwise seems fine.

    HD BTR
    -Thoughts on the current version: Did I mention that this variant is a total joke before?
    It’s worth saying it again being the heaviest variant by a good margin yet it’s the 2nd squishiest, offers by far the worst DPM, and longevity not much better than the stub. Apparently 11 armour and a somewhat higher heat damage threshold was worth so much more than the invested weight that all the other stats were sacked.
    I’m not sure what was being smoked when these were being made but I want some! 😀

    -What I would change: Increase durability to 758 (up from 563) and increase damage to 142 (up from 84) but reduce its fire rate to 15 RPM (down from 20 RPM or 4 seconds reload time up from 3).
    This should bring its DPM to be on par with the other variants (only marginally more than the Z) but there’s always something to be said about a higher alpha which was the only potential selling point behind this variant, so I placed more emphasis on that.
    This also makes that ammo much MUCH more valuable.
    The increased durability should help make the extra weight investment less questionable.

    160 BTR
    -Thoughts on the current version: While this variant has the highest heat damage threshold and does offer the best longevity as far as ammo/total damage is concerned by a decent margin, even moreso than the Z, that’s about all it has going for it.
    Its reduced range and increased weight (and durability not much better than the HD) make investing in these very questionable.

    -What I would change: I would increase its durability to 788 (up from 593) and its fire rate to 50 RPM (up from 40). This brings the 160 to have a noticeably higher DPM than the X and Stub (the former highest but still ahead of the Z and HD) and make better use of that extremely high ammo stat. In order to burn it out you would have lay the trigger for a little over five minutes without ever stopping, this is after the proposed firing rate increase.
    Guaranteed to last through the battle unless you’re super wasteful with little care for your accuracy stat.

    Concussion Rocket
    -Thoughts on the current version: Remember when Cyber took Toast’s trolling more seriously than Axle’s more serious suggestion and the weapon changed from a fun but underpowered skill-based weapon into an utterly ridiculous spam weapon to play against for a few months.
    Before it was entirely reworked into a weaker and boring but still annoying weapon to play against? Yeah, me too.
    Apparently the reason Cyber decided against the armour buff was because he suspected that Axle just wanted to go sliding around on treads.

    -What I would change: First, lets undo most of the changes it has had until we’re back to its underpowered old self that hurled 15 rockets in a burst that each did 5 damage with 300 range just before the splash radius buff; and take some buffs in a different direction while returning to its skill-based roots.
    1, Instead of increasing their splash radius, how about we do the exact opposite and actually remove the splash radius.
    Back in the days when their range was still 75, I came up with an idea to place two concussion rockets in the same fire group as four flame throwers. In essence you would ram into someone, fire the rockets and the flamers simultaneously. The impact forces from the rockets would buy the flamers time to really torch someone and usually kill it before the target could respond.
    The problem? I found out the hard way that concussion rockets did splash damage and would hurl my own aim off so it took a little care to use properly, then the range increase came it was less of an issue, and the splash radius increase came which ruined it.
    So remove the splash radius and convert it into a direct-damage weapon (still display the little explosions of course).
    This makes it a workable secondary weapon for melee builds and kills the rocket sliding trick.
    2, To make up for the lost damage, increase their damage to 12 (up from 5). It should be able to do a decent amount of damage but unlike its modern/current incarnation it’s very fair damage.
    3, Increase their armour to 60.
    4, Reduce range to 180.

    MENR X762 (AKA pancake genny)
    -Thoughts on the current version: While this was once an indispensable part of every spine build way back in the day owing to its useful shape. Its slim profile was enough justification for its poor durability and armour stats, but its terrible thermal stats was enough to drive it into extinction. The MENR X628 has completely replaced it as the main go-to medium generator.

    -What I would change: Honestly I’d just reduce its heat generation to 45 (down from 70), its 80 heat damage threshold unchanged. It’s thermal stats are still fairly bad compared to its fellow medium generators but at least it isn’t a straight up liability to use.

    M RAD 24
    -Thoughts on the current version: This radiator sees very little use and it isn’t very hard to see why. Supposedly that 10 armour is its only selling point together with slightly lower power usage when you compare it to the similarly weighted Cube 4900. The issue?
    Its durability is lower than that of the cube by exactly 10% which not only undermines that 10% splash resistance but makes it worse against other damage types. On top of that it provides less than half the cooling. Pretty bad deal to be had here.

    -What I would change: Jack that armour stat to 45 (up from 10) and increase its durability to 344 (up from 325).
    If there’s to be at least one radiator that stands more than a fart’s chance against splash damage, it’s this one.

    Blockade Deploy
    -Thoughts on the current version: The last time I ever made a build with one of these was back in the pre-skynet custom AI days since the AI doesn’t know to use repair sheds and the part itself is shaped identically.
    In theory you could choke off traffic through an area but it’s more tedious than it’s worth and it’s universally seen as a bad part.

    -What I would change: When deploying these, it should spawn three of the caltrops side-by-side close enough together that they block access between them. Have its cooldown reduced to 8 seconds (down from 20).
    This could make it less tedious to use by being able to block off more pathing area in less time, it could also replace the wall deploy to some extent in the role of covering your retreat (but not necessarily absorbing weapon fire).

    Medium uplink deploy
    -Thoughts on the current version: Strangely this is one of the few parts that’s selected more often than it should be mostly because it looks cool. The only good thing is that it weighs 32 less than two small uplink deploys and uses 50 less power than two small uplink deploys.
    What makes no sense is that its durability is identical which is silly considering its larger size.

    -What I would change: Increase its armour to 25 (up from 10), increase its durability to 360 (up from 255), and change its thermal stats from 5 heat generation to 5 cooling. Your cool looking build will be quite literally cooler and maintain both coolness factors for a little longer in a fight.

    Armoured Turret Deploy
    -Thoughts on the current version: So it’s been noted that this turret type is designed to be near immune to splash damage, which is neat. But the issue is that the cannons that it is armed with are LGT Zs. LGT Zs do not have the armour to stand up to much splash damage and the turret is highly unlikely to keep them following a bombardment. This compromises its ability to fulfill its role.

    -What I would change:
    1, If the 160 cannon gets the armour buff that was proposed then a pair of LGT 160.Y6 Cannons would be great here, if not then probably LGT HD.Y6s.
    2, The deploy aux itself should have its armour increased to 85 (up from 10) to match the turret just like the other turret deploys coincidentally do. More importantly this gives the defender role an option for a turret deploy that doesn’t compromise the build’s overall splash resistance.

    MDD-SHGT Spacer
    -Thoughts on the current version: For those of you wondering, this is that other small straight spacer that shares the same dimensions as the SHGT-AG1 but is slightly heavier and trades 15 armour for 63 durability. If you increase the lighter model’s durability by 15% it comes to around the same durability that the heavier model provides. If they perform roughly the same, why would I (or anyone really) invest the extra weight for it?

    -What I could change: An increase in durability to 525 (up from 498) should provide some reason to invest in this spacer over the lighter model.

    There’s a lot of parts out there that I likely missed, so feel free to discuss.
    But the cockpits were already discussed in another thread and I still stand by everything I said there.
    As for chassi… I’m not feeling up to talking about them at the moment. Probably going to wait for digis, quads, the new hover and let the new part hype die down before I talk about chassis balance.

    • This topic was modified 1 month ago by Fenix. Reason: I moved it
    June 16, 2018 at 12:35 PM #145925
    SergeDavidSergeDavid
    Moderator
    Colonel
    Total posts : 3049

    For my part I say that the small angled spacers should have at least 70~80 armor as they are extremely weak to direct fire with their very low durability. Giving them so little armor means you can’t use them in any meaningful way as splash can get at them easily.

    "I think you are going to like what I am doing even more than I like your comparison tool and I like your tool a LOT"

    June 17, 2018 at 9:15 PM #145930
    Bombdog StudiosBombdog Studios
    Forum Admin
    Chief Warrant Officer
    Total posts : 623

    Lots of great feedback!

    June 19, 2018 at 6:19 AM #145934
    FenixFenix
    Participant
    Major
    Total posts : 1779

    Thank you! :3

    If you have any feedback for my feedback feel free to exchange ideas. If there was a version of MAV that was entirely balanced by me it would probably have its own issues.

    June 22, 2018 at 4:53 PM #145947
    ~Toast~~Toast~
    Participant
    Sergeant
    Total posts : 87

    Whaat? It was funny at the time. 🙁

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